Should anime adapt to global sensibilities, or stay true to its cultural roots?

BilboBaggins365's comment touches on a lot of the points I had in mind in a way more eloquent way than I could write on my own. There's been global influence in Japanese animation pretty much from the start. Japanese culture in general has taken on quite a bit of foreign influence after they were forced out of isolationism and rapidly tried to industrialize to catch up with Western superpowers. The Japanese culture of today has heavy outside influence and it would probably have looked very different if they were still isolationist. Even if you wanted to ignore that, there is definitely Western influence and inspirations in some popular shows of the past that you can directly point to.

The Duel Mosnters card game in Yu-Gi-Oh was literally a parody of the popular Magic the Gathering card game which is produced by Wizards of the Coast and was made in the US. The allusion is even more direct in the original manga serialization as the game was called "Magic and Wizards" and is described as a popular game from the United States that was starting to become popular globally. While this may be less apparent nowadays due to the anime adaptation changing the name to Duel Monsters for copyright reasons, with the ZEXAL and ARC-V manga following along with this change years later (the English manga also changed it to Duel Monsters in reprints for consistency), an while the actual game may differ in rules quite a bit from MTG, it still does have its roots in the popular American card game. This isn't even up for debate as this was information directly from author Kazuki Takahashi (RIP) himself in Weekly Shonen Jump 1996 Issue 51 during the game's second manga appearance

Yu-Gi-Oh also takes a bit of inspiration from popular American films and comics in ways you may not expect. In an interview published in Duel Art: Kazuki Takahashi Yu-Gi-Oh! Illustrations (which is sadly out of print), Takahashi is directly asked about inspirations for his original Yu-Gi-Oh manga. While at first he goes over some inspirations from other mangaka, most notably pointing out the works of Hirohiko Araki, he was also directly asked about any inspirations outside of manga that had an influence on Yu-Gi-Oh. Takahashi starts by mentioning how Yugi's character design directly was inspired by the 1990 Tim Burton film Edward Scissorhands and used the "bondage fashion" to create the iconic leather outfit with the straps that he wears during the earlier parts of the series. In this same interview, Takahashi talks about the "Solid Vision" system, which is the holograms that the characters use in the anime and manga so that the viewer can watch the cards battle as if they were physically there. Takahashi stated that this idea was inspired by the board game "Dejarik" from the Star Wars franchise more colloquially known as Holochess. Later on in this same interview, Takahashi was asked about how he designed the monster cards seen throughout the series and he says that a major source of inspiration for a lot of designs came from the Spawn franchise using a lot of the McFarlane Toys action figures as reference when coming up with ideas for details to put on the monsters. You can even see this in chapter 22 of the original manga in where a kid at school is obsessed with an undead superhero from American comics who is a very obvious homage to Todd McFarlane's Spawn published by Image Comics.

Dragon Ball also has quite a bit of Western influence in the franchise even if the story may have started off with more Chinese influence at first. Akira Toriyama is pretty well known in the Dragon Ball fandom to be a fan of American films and you can definitely see a few references or allusions in the franchise if you look hard enough. Sergeant Metallic from the Red Ribbon Army arc is a killer android who looks visually similar to Arnold Schwarznegger as the T-800 from the Terminator franchise that a young Goku ends up having to fight while he ascends Muscle Tower. While not outright confirmed, it is heavily speculated that Freeza's third form may have been inspired by the Xenomorph from the Alien franchise. The reason this speculation may hold some credence is due to a 2003 interview for the Viz Media version of the Shonen Jump magazine in where Toriyama was asked about his reasoning for adding in Sci-fi elements to Dragon Ball in where he responds

which may lend some credence to the idea that some inspiration from Alien may have been taken in the character design given that it is Toriyama's favorite science fiction movie.

Jojo's Bizarre Adventure thrives off of allusions and references to Western music and pop culture. From Part 4 onwards, almost every stand name is in reference to various bands, albums and songs. Out of all the Stands throuhgout the series, so far there has only been one named after a Japanese song, being CHOCOLATE DISCO from Part 7 (Steel Ball Run). Some characters are also named after songs and artists as well, and often times these references may clue one in on the nature of a character if they are aware of the original music. Jojo has also generally not stuck to Japan as a setting. Out of all 9 current Jojo parts, only 2 of them stay confined to Japan alone being parts 4 and 8. The United States has appeared as the primary location of a Jojo part the most out of any country, being the main settings of Parts 6,7, and 9. Parts 1, 2, and 5 primarily take place in European countries, with cultural elements showing up in the story.

Western influence has been in Japanese animation and manga for a long time (since the beginning if you count early Japanese animators being inspired by Walt Disney cartoons) and honestly the people pretending it hasn't been there are just gaslighting themselves to push a narrative of "new anime bad because woke". Artists take inspirations from the world around them and the media they consume, so its not really all too uncommon for cross cultural pollination in storytelling to happen. It's not even exclusive to Japan either, you see it all the time with Western comics and animation too. Look at how many American cartoons reference Japanese shows or try to emulate some of the artistic trends in those shows. We are in a time where it is easier than ever to access art made from anywhere in the world, so of course artists will take that inspiration from things that might be from outside their own country, especially if there was some sort of unique concept or aesthetic decision that stuck with the artist. The nature of an artist is to take in and remix existing ideas from the outside world and other creators into something new and original, why should it just be limited to the stuff right outside one's window? The world is such a vast and interesting place and for one to lock themselves down to just one strict set of local cultural ideas in their creations leaves the full potential of artistic creativity chained down when there is an infinite frontier of ideas just outside of your local area

Additionally, people try to argue that whatever, woke stuff they see in media, well it must be because of those evil Western overlords. It takes away our agency, Japan's agency. I mean treating the USA like it some hive mind of the "progressive agenda" is quite funny all things considered.

Japanese creators are conscious of the world, they do not live in a bubble. Wandering Son, is a work I would expect a lot of people to point out as being the "WOKE" however, it came out when Western funding in the industry had wanned. On the other hand, Shueisha is publishing pretty right wing xenophobic works, in age where Western funding is more successful than ever, and series like Irregular at Magic HS, whose themes i would argue are pretty right wing, are getting numerous sequels. Fanservice still exists and if anything is more explicit in some cases, despite the industry now getting more of it's money from global, rater than domestic audiences.


I mean I am a Tolkien fan, I get why Tolkien to some extent was worried about global homogenization. I actually feel this way about Western media. I don't want Western animators or creators to be like "the kids love anime, let's bring that in everywhere". It's boring and aesthetically there are very Western styles that I prefer to some anime art designs. Variety is good. I still think that even if some global trends become similar, the access we have to wide spread information means we have more access to unique culture, than any of our ancestors ever did.

Still, even if the argument was right, and that we are going towards a global homogenized society..... what do people want to do lol? It's happening because of the internet, economic interdependence, advances in transportation etc. This has been an ongoing force since frankly 5 centuries ago, and we are just continually moving forward. You can't halt it and again anime cannot exist without it. I think most people who get upset about this are just scared of the future, so they go after what they think is a modern concept in rapid globalization, while they misunderstand that what is going on in the world, is a force that existed long before they were born.

I get it I am scared of the future too. Still if the goal is I don't want anime to change, or get worse.... I mean it's going to change. Anime is not at all like what it was in the 70s or 80s. Global trends affected that, domestic trends did too. It's going to be different regardless if you get upset or not. All you do is wait and support what you want to see in media. Anime if anything is pretty money hungry and will respond to whoever has the most dough. So if you have it, they will cater to you.

They can pretty much make whatever they want. I don't know to what extent Western consumption makes up their business model, but it still feels like they mostly cater to a Japanese market. And honestly, anime is already pretty much a blend of Japanese traditional culture and Western anyway. So it's probably not changing.

Neither. Art is a robust and individual thing, as much as it is cultural. A good artist in the best environment, I think, should be open to other cultures while also being willing to forge their own path. It is not a binary East versus West. Do any of you object to My Hero Academia being strongly influenced by Western culture? By the logic of this poll, Horikoshi betrayed his roots by including distinctively not Japanese aspects and influences within his works.

Simply not limiting himself to his roots does not make Horikoshi a "race traitor" or anything, nor does it make any Japanese artist who wants to look towards other cultures for inspiration. For example, Bloodbourne from FromSoftware has undeniably been inspired by among other things H.P. Lovecraft.

Framing it as a binary as this thread does I think misunderstands what art is to an individual level, and is in fact stifling to Japanese creatives. If any individual artist wants to adapt or be inspired by the "sensibilities" of other cultures, I say let them. Art is always going to change anyway, and grow from its roots.

What does it mean to "stay true to its roots" when art as a whole never stops changing in the first place? Does being Japanese obligate Horikoshi to write in a "Japanese" style?



I was genuinely surprised to discover Apothecary Diaries being a Japanese work by a Japanese author despite the clearly Chinese setting and iconography outside of what is normally in Wuxia animation. Perhaps it is too perfunctory and assumption based on one anime, but I would not be too surprised if more Chinese-inspired works and works from Chinese individuals like Wuxia do get more adaptations going forward, depending on how China's own animation evolves in spite of the censorship laws.

I also wouldn't be surprised if the bigger thing is that Chinese animation influences anime creatives in the future.

I think artists should make the art they want to make. If they want to make something from a uniquely and specifically Japanese perspective, fine. If they want to make something with a more global view, that's also fine. Depending on what they're making, one or the other might be more suitable, but it's a subjective artistic choice. It's not like anime is a completely magically separate part of world cinema anyway. You are almost certainly missing cultural references to things in anime that are not from Japan or your own country simply because the people who made the anime have consumed some piece of foreign media that you haven't. Something like, say, The Big O is obviously based around giant robots fighting monsters in the middle of the city which is a very super robot and tokusatsu inspired motif which is very Japanese, but it's also dripping with references and homages to noir, superhero media, and western science fiction, some of which are very overt, and the texture of the series would be very different without them. For example, the theme tune is obviously based on the theme tune Queen wrote for the 1980 film version of Flash Gordon. More obscurely, the track "Respect" from the soundtrack is also an homage, to the theme from the classic 1970 British sci-fi series Gerry Anderson's UFO. This is a deep cut that I only happen to know because I came of age at a time when Thunderbirds and Captain Scarlet and the Mysterons were being repeated on TV, and enjoyed them enough to want to go looking into Gerry Anderson's other works when I was older. I'm sure there are other explicit references in the series that I didn't pick up simply because I haven't seen the thing they're from.

(Respect and the theme from UFO below)

@DigiCat

And this relevant why? Where is the OP saying that, stories shouldn't be written by Japanese people? He is talking about "global standards" which mean a wide range of things, which of course people don't define. A Japanese creator still easily can bring their own experiences, while also consciously importing in foreign cultures into their work, or knowingly writing for a global audience.


Who is demanding what to be catered to them? Like this is the problem, you are treating Japanese fans like they are a monolith, and international fans like they are a monolith. You are ascribing censorship to international forces, and freedom of art to Japan, which in many cases is actually more censored than Western media (which country censors porn again?).

In general anime fans need to stop equating otaku culture to Japanese culture, as if they are universally the same thing. I guarantee Shinto priests do not want to be equated to the people that need their HS anime girl boobies. People are going to have a wide range of opinions of what they want to see in media, what should be acceptable to be seen etc. Once again people complaining about "global sensibilities" are just using "Japan" less like a country and people and more like a political/social instrument for whatever frustrations they have, with their own countries.

Don't kid yourself with "global standards means a wide range of things"

RN the "global standered" a very very loud minority is demanding are things like "me too" fight the patriarchy

So by saying "anime should adapt to a global standerd" you're basically saying anime should cut all fanservice cuz some loud westeners are offended by it

Let me flip the script a minute

In japan public displays of affection are actually considered very disrespectful, their mentality is basically "do whatever you want, but get a room!"

So knowing that, should hollywood movies/series adapt to a global standerd and cut all making-out scenese that happen in public places because it might be offencive to some people in japan or korea where that behaviour is frowned upon?

Or let's take the global standerd even further, cuz global means including all countries

Did you know there are still countries where being gay is illegal?

So should hollywood and anime adapt to inculde their standerds and cut all LGBTQ BL/GL contetn?

That is what happens when you create a global standerd trying to please everyone, it is limiting, it is not feasible, it'll lead to the destruction of creativity

Calling that a "standard" is conceding defeat. It's not standard if its proponents are a minority.

Don't kid yourself with "global standards means a wide range of things"

RN the "global standered" a very very loud minority is demanding are things like "me too" fight the patriarchy

So by saying "anime should adapt to a global standerd" you're basically saying anime should cut all fanservice cuz some loud westeners are offended by it

Let me flip the script a minute

In japan public displays of affection are actually considered very disrespectful, their mentality is basically "do whatever you want, but get a room!"

So knowing that, should hollywood movies/series adapt to a global standerd and cut all making-out scenese that happen in public places because it might be offencive to some people in japan or korea where that behaviour is frowned upon?

Or let's take the global standerd even further, cuz global means including all countries

Did you know there are still countries where being gay is illegal?

So should hollywood and anime adapt to inculde their standerds and cut all LGBTQ BL/GL contetn?

That is what happens when you create a global standerd trying to please everyone, it is limiting, it is not feasible, it'll lead to the destruction of creativity

@DigiCat

I was being coy, because one of the posters said this about wanting to be against "politics". Any time people bring up this topic, either for or against whatever they deem the "global standard" it's because they have a political bone to pick. Plus the term itself is just still quite stupid, because the USA and Iran do not have the same standard lol.

Eh you have plenty of concerns from countries like China or Christian activist groups, blaming it all on feminists is pretty reductive. Regardless, though where is the line drawn? People say well it's because I don't want to see male characters humiliated or replaced in certain IPs I like. Or that, the concept of a "strong woman", in some Western media, frankly is quite toxic. I mean I would say to all of that fair enough.

That said, the reason I largely have started to turn against all these claims about a "global standard" is that there is a large portion of people who just simply don't like diversity at all in the medium, despite the fact racial, sexual and gender diversity have been a thing in this medium for decades. Rose of Versailles in the 70s, was commenting on the male dominated society of Revolutionary France, and what it probably was like to be a Lesbian in those times. In that regard, anime was more progressive than a lot of mass media, even in the West. A lot of people would decry that as woke though.

Plus, this idea that all Western fiction is just toxic girl bosses, with 15 different sexual identities is also just straight up foolish, and I think a lot of fans who think that, need to actually play more Western RPGs, read more books, and even film and TV, does have good stuff, and I am not a super active viewer.


Well one, Hollywood does adapt to a "Global Standard", so do Western gaming studios, for countries like China and the ME. Remember Disney getting shit for try to show off how diverse they were for having a lesbian background character in SW, so they could easily cut her out for international releases? Yeah this happens all the time. The goal is money, and if you have to change media, to avoid outrage, to get a wider audience most will do it.

Still, I don't really see "self censorship" in the same was as actual censorship, mainly because it's always easy to get access to the real thing, in modern day.



I mean again let's be honest here. You want me to be blunt I will be blunt. Most people, outside of the Christian activist groups are offended about fanservice for two reasons. One the fact there is a decent amount of sexual fanservice in anime, that is just sexual harassment jokes and the second point, that it's because anime has largely aimed it's work at an older teen audience, and therefore features older teens (or younger). This is the real crux. Sexual content, when you ignore hentai, in anime, is really really tame, however there is a reason some very sexualized Western shows don't get the amount of attention some anime do.

Again trying to say this is the same as people being offended at gay people is a pretty pretty big reach. It's not the same morally speaking, unless you actually do think being LGBTQ is some immoral curse.

Now I am going to say this, largely I have enjoyed plenty of shows like Food Wars, Dragon Ball, Kill La Kill etc. Do to my views on how these characters are drawn, problematic fiction, I don't' think it's causing some harm. It's like series like Euphoria or Game of Thrones, which has problematic scenes portrayed by adult actors.

Still I am not just going to invalidate people who are concerned. The reality is yeah teenagers are often preyed upon, they probably are oversexualized in our culture and Japan's, and when considering the manga industry has had known pedos on famous manga, I get why some people are concerned. I am going TBH, a decent amount of anime fans just seem to revel in being creeps, and while that might just be I am trying to offend you edgy humor, it's not really a good look.

Just saying oh yeah these, people are just scared of creativity and true free expression, well no it's a moral concern and again Western media, like the series I named like Game of Thrones and Euphoria have gotten similar critiques, because exploitation of minors is a real problem, and we can debate if this really contributes however, sure as I got older, I have reflected on some of this stuff, and hey I can see it, and as someone who enjoys his hentai, yeah i just tend to consciously move away from that stuff.

Plus ultimately, like myself, I just think a lot of anime fans enjoy sexual content in the medium and would be fine if we just made more ecchi that just has a "all characters are above 18". It's just not as common.

Like if you want to complain about the "global standard" you are going to find a lot of the world (that doesn't actually allow for child marriage) agrees or is somewhat critical of stuff in Japanese otaku culture, and that includes Japan itself. Just because something is common in a culture doesn't mean it should be accepted, or that people shouldn't push for it to change if there is actual harm that is noticeable. And honestly, I can't say yes or no, however, I do think that yeah teens are pretty oversexualized in our culture. At this point, I do think the medium would be better off cutting that out and you can do that while still being unabashedly sexual. That said, I don't want to ever see shows like hey classic DB not be available, because of a few of it's gags.


No I actually meant both, fans will change, the genres are going to change, art style and animation is going to change. Art won't be stagnant and just like you have some posters, who lament the death of older anime (even as a fan who likes all eras of anime I really do miss the 80s), you are going to have dudes in the 2040s talk about how anime is dead, compared to the 2020s. Some people are not going to like the future, and you just got to accept that. At least there is a ton of media out there for you now.

Anime must be stay true to its cultural roots.

We, as you want to call yourself -weeb, Anime fan or otaku- must protect Anime purity from Western sensiblities, they are trying to change Anime, they are already did with Western Animation, with Western Games, with Western Films, but we are aware of what they are tying to do now.

We must gatekeep tourists, we must protect Anime.

@Nurguburu
>Says this
>Has Neon Genesis Evangelion in his favourites list

It's all too predictable.

I have been playing PokiesReal for several months now and can share my experience. Firstly, it is important to understand that real money games always have an element of chance. No slot gives guaranteed winnings, and everything depends on luck, but there are several points that can increase the chances of success.

I have been playing PokiesReal for several months now and can share my experience. Firstly, it is important to understand that real money games always have an element of chance. No slot gives guaranteed winnings, and everything depends on luck, but there are several points that can increase the chances of success.

End capitalism or at least heavily restrict it from brainwashing people intentional or not, and stop global superpowers from using threats of violence to manipulate others.


Because they are tourists. If they were there from the beginning they would have known what is the norm in anime and manga already. Many dont even watch anime they get it from memes.


Anyone at any age can be taken advantage of in some shape or form by anyone of any age but also the line is far too arbitrary on what is and is not taking advantage, you literally can argue any and all relationships no matter how good they are all are taking advantage and taken advantage of within them. The claim you make of one thing influencing another while giving such a easily open to interpretation of what thing is just is so unscientifically unfalsifiable. Different people all have their own strengths and weaknesses, everyone has a vulnerable side. Though what you have implied is falsifiable and long proven false, that media consumption does not lead to any net negative effect on any criminality or bad character inherently. Actions are more what matters not thoughts and feelings. There isn't anything immoral in any desire because such things are not something anyone can control as it just happens from their brain wiring not a choice they made, if desire is immoral of any kind and if lack of choice does not even matter in determining morality then someone can all the same argue homosexuals and transgenders and people with autism or schizophrenia are immoral for the same reasons of it being arbitrarily considered "unnatural", "gross" or "immoral" (circular reasoning).

@DigiCat

Did I claim that? I mean if I had I probably would immediately refute that if you could give me the quote where I said or implied this. I do have an interest in politics, my issue is when people deflect from claiming they are very non political, and only acting on the basis of "I like good media" or "I hate censorship" when in fact they are operating on a political basis.


This is a pretty wide assumption. Well I have made a few too. Still I mean if we are going to talk somewhat recent, CR literally nuked their comment section because of all the people making homophobic comments, on a BL series. That series was an organic creation of Japanese creativity however, those people didn't care. I used to underestimate how intolerant right wing fans were in nerdy spaces, on the basis this had died down, in younger generations. It has not, and to me there have been plenty of examples where depiction not execution is in fact the issue.

... Not really. It's because they made tons of changes to SW lore, and characterization that turned off lots of fans like me, who did go to TLJ just not Rise. Like if the point is that left wing politics, within Western spaces have led to bad writing decisions and forced narratives, I wouldn't disagree.

My issue is one cultural critiques treating this as innate in Western media spaces (it's not), that left wing narratives at all are bad or destructive (they also are not) and that the right doesn't also have very forced narratives (because they do). SW itself is actually very left wing, in sometimes very insufferable ways (see EPVI). The problem with the culture war, and the "global standard" focused people is they can't just accept maybe this IP sucks cause they have bad writers, it must be because of the politics. SW just has bad writing and guess what lots of anime do too.

Did I deny that? I am confused by your statement? Plus ecchi honestly isn't as good as investment as it used to be. You can get away with it in other works, however sex actually isn't really selling as well as it used to, outside of some exceptions. Granted the stuff we are getting is pretty explicit.

Shojo absolutely has fanservice in it.


Dude I have watched my share of old school/mainstream battle shonen. Shows like Touch, City Hunter, Dragon Ball, YuYu Hakusho, Naruto, My Hero Academia all these series have characters who are allied with the good guys commit straight up sexual assault at some point. Modern shows this is less the case, it still can be there. Again I didn't say the majority I said a decent amount for people to notice. Yeah I was intentionally vague. The majority may not be that, and I didn't actually claim that.


..Yeah I mean I didn't deny that? Like what is the point of this response? Secondly I mean Jump's audience is actually like half adults. It's not as teen focused as you may think. I wouldn't be shocked if that is true of a lot of shonen magazines.

Maybe? Fact is after all of these stupid debates, there isn't anything that shows anything indictive yet. I still think that yeah teens are being preyed upon by our society. Whether that is just natural human depravity or there is some cultural aspect, I cannot say. If there is a cultural aspect we do have a responsibility at that point to ensure they aren't being victimized.

Edit: You would have to clarify what you mean by "any". No I don't think sexual attraction, sexual art or sexual desire is immoral generally. Though there are yeah kinds of sexual desire and attraction that are absolutely immoral. I don't see what kind of answer you are expecting here lol. I think my answer would be the same as most people.

Decent doesn't mean majority, it just means enough to be noticeable, which it is. Also I don't really think incest is the biggest thing lol. We got tons of that in Western media too. Again you will have people who get upset over it, however, I really think most of the heat on anime fanservice would die down if most of the characters were just said to be canonically 18 and taking place in non HS settings, even if they have some pretty out there fetishes.

I've heard of some companies who want to stop any licensing of lewd anime to encourage self-censoring, but I really hope that doesn't happen. Even if the west is a big market, I don't think anime should cater to it. What they're doing for the domestic market is usually what foreigners also prefer.

In terms of localizations (like your example of changing rice balls into donuts) that's also something anime could do without. If the dub and sub are that different then I think the majority of viewers would either watch the sub even if they prefer dubs or just avoid anime that they know the dub changed too much if they can't do subs. Even if a licensing team thinks they're being helpful by trying to make things more familiar, they're really alienating anyone who chooses to watch their version because it's no longer the authentic product. English dubs can be made well in a way that gives viewers as close to the original experience while still making it easier to watch and if you're going to go through the effort of dubbing a show you should take care to make it a proper translation.

@DigiCat

Yes I am responding to your claim lol.... that is how comments work.

Again quote where I said this.


Complaining that globalism is ruining anime because they potentially could bring in more LGBTQ characters, that they could have more varied racial characters, how they may depict sexuality or because they might have more prominent female characters is political. Like isn't that what this is really about?

It's very hard to disconnect from politics because politics is about society. Not every position you have is political however, a lot of them are going to be. Like that was the only reason I would disagree with the everything is political crowd, I don't think everything is however, a majority of things we do talk about in society or our culture are. You are absolutely heavily influenced by what you think the ideal society is.

Ahem.... read what I said again. Did I deny that? No. Dude we are dealing with anecdotal evidence, we aren't scientists here. All I am saying is that sure, you can feel that way however, my experience is very different.

No one cared about the kiss scene. It was just funny to watch Disney be hypocritical.


Cool, again I never denied that.

Well at least you said something I disagreed with... and not something I never opposed. No fanservice can damage a story. I mean literally any story element can damage a story. You have to consider tone, what elements of fanservice are in the work and it can create immersion problems even. Like that is why I find a lot of fanservice gag comedy annoying, not because people are horny creeps, but because they don't get really punished for being that way, like they would IRL.

I won't entirely deny that, still honestly I just consider most BL to be pretty adjacent to Shojo, and that stuff is very sexually overt. Female targeted media just divided up their content preference more than male media.

I mean I am actively watching it Yusuke Urameshi pulls up his childhood's friends skirt to look at her underwear. As for MHA? Mineta.

He is a peeping tom. I mean to be fair I guess that is the crime of mischief and voyeurism if we really want to be technical.

.... What is the point of listing off these shows? I never claimed this is present in all anime, or present in all shonen anime or whatever. I just said you can find in enough noteworthy shows that is all.

Noticeable, as in I can list off enough notable anime, that casual fans are going to watch, where they get this idea in the first place. No I did not say majority. I mean I have literally defended anime from past claims, that it's full of fanservice like this. Like again, you are making an assertion that I agree with. That isn't my point though.

On paper yes, in reality they have to consider their reader base is also older, and therefore keep those fans invested in reading too.

Lots of toy companies like Lego, are conscious of the fact they have older buyers. Why do you think they put out those expensive sets, most parents are not getting that for their kids. Well off single adults or at least childless ones however...., they got money.

I wish anime companies would grow their balls back and continue/reboot Kodomo no Jikan. I wanna see heads explode/implode.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEM-rHmNzCY

@DigiCat

Well one you have failed to prove I said I had no interest in politics. Two I was the one who tip toed around, the political nature of this thread. You are the one who said:


So uh no, you were the one who brought up politics and I am just responding to that. Before you made these comments, the only time I brought up politics was to point out that getting worried about the things you mentioned, is dumb, because there hasn't been some major political shift since international money became more dominant.

Did I say you? Plus you stated you wanted me to stop kidding around with what "global standards" means. You were the one who brought up the issue of people worried about some forms of feminist rhetoric worming into anime.

Secondly, I am talking very generally, and yes most of the concern about "globalism" related to anime is based on some idea of what Western political thought is and how that could impact anime.

Huh? No? The point was that SW bombed with some fans long before, it got to the whole inclusion of LGBT characters situation. People were still stewing over Luke. The whole point of SW is that yeah people do care about LGBT inclusion and a lot of people around the world see it very negatively. How is what I said contradictory? If you are going to make an accusation back it up, I still have yet to see that.

Fine... I literally don't understand why we are talking about this. I never even made an anti all fanservice comment.

Fine I wouldn't disagree.

If you want to ignore how inter gender relations are in the real world, sure it's not that different. Regardless, people do downplay how bad some bullying is. The reality is, where I come from, if I was in HS/MS, and I flicked up some girls skirt, so I could look at her underwear you better believe the cops are getting involved.

Kay... I am well aware that it could just be 3/100. The thing is many of these shows are popular, and that is what a lot of casual fans get from anime. The fact that I could be watching a wholesome SOL, that has no fanservice content whatsoever is irrelevant for how the public views the medium.

Did I say this is right or justified? No. That said, I have seen enough jokes and commentary coming from casuals and outsiders to know, they are getting their ideas about anime sexual content, fanservice etc from stuff like this regardless if you think that is justifiable or not.

Plus.... you are going off on something that I didn't even claim was a main issue. Just something some fans don't like. It really is just the ages of the characters. We have tons of depictions of graphic rape, incest, non con situations, in our own Western fiction that doesn't get that much attention.

Well assuming that what a 16 year old male wants and what a 25 year old male wants is drastically different is a major assumption. You don't have to appeal to very different audiences, all I am saying they are aware they do have older fans, and as a result Jump is going to have maybe some edgier works to appeal to older teens too, it has works like OP, where the editors must know the audience has aged up with the work etc etc.

Of course their goal is to continue to bring in teens to sustain the business. I am just saying they have to be aware and will pay nods to their other fans. I mean that is true with the female fanbase. I mean hey it get's mentioned in Bakuman, as something creators may do, of course the series condemns going away from the major demographic. Still series like Haikyuu will have themes that cater to the traditional male sports manga/anime fan, however, they are aware attractive/sympathetic male leads also can bring in more women to reading their work.

Yeah well I am not denying that. I am a mid 20s dude. I still enjoy that format of storytelling. I am not saying that creators should or are changing it. What I am saying is they will throw in nods to their older audiences in some form, while keeping the work still very shonenesque.

Regardless this is really going down another rabbit hole, that frankly is getting really off topic. At the very least, yeah I do not deny that Shonen Jump is trying to mainly get male teens to read their stuff... okay? it was just a side comment regarding the fact that teens only actually make up around 50% of it's reading base. That is all. I didn't mean for it to be more than, lots of people reading those series with fanservice aren't teens. I honestly don't have much more to say then I think you are going off on me, on something I don't even drastically differ from you on, which for a few of these points is also true.

@DigiCat

Stop making assumptions and your life will be easier. No I never said or implied I was above politics. What I said I don't like is people pretending they are apolitical, and they only want good writing, yet their definition of an ideal medium, is one that caters to their political ideals.

Whatever.....again I didn't mention anything about politics beyond, there hasn't been a political shift since international money flowed in. You can go back in the thread and see that.

This is what I said

In response to this comment you made

We are talking about everyone...like yeah my responses need the context related to the words you provided... so no I never did imply you. I am talking generally about everyone.

I wouldn't deny that. Still the problem wasn't bringing in a female character and emphasizing her, it was that the writing sucked. I mean if you emphasize male characters, and downplay the female characters, sure people might call that work sexist. I don't like those people, just like I don't like people blaming female empowerment, on bad writing. I never would have disagreed that TLJ's bad writing was influenced by this desire to uphold female characters and downplay male characters. That is true.



Fine, I will be honest that was poor choice of words on my part. Disney censored because people do care. Again, unless you are actually going to argue LGBTQ people are tolerated globally, which I mean at that point then I think I am done with the insanity of that assertion.

People do see LGBT characters negatively and if you are going to deny that, deny how homophobic, even a lot of Westerners are (like I do have personal experience here lol as a bi/pan man) forget the Global South.....I don't have much to say to that lol. That is just straight up delusion at that point. Part of the militancy of some of these communities, sometimes unjustifiably and aimed at the wrong people, is because LGBT people are under threat. They feel threatened and that leads to hostility. I mean could you really blame them?

It isn't just about execution it often is about identity. Look I was a disaffected SW fan coming out of TLJ too. Sure I like many, just thought it was writing/lore though you spend any time talking to many "I hate politics people" and you will find yeah a lot of them are just self interested bigots. Whatever, that is just my anecdotal experience and I haven't had enough in the opposite direction, to change that world view. I am only human.

Fine, you know you as a straight woman are fine with your crush flipping up your skirt... I am not going to keep going into this even more lol. I think I am just done with this line of discussion to the point of caring, and frankly I spent way too much time on this tiring discussion. I literally only brought this up because I saw a meme awhile back, and I just realized it was making fun of YuYu, now that I am watching it. IDC, honestly having fun with the show I was just trying to say how others see it.

@DigiCat

How is assuming that by encouraging more LGBT fiction, or "empowered" female characters you are going to ensure a worse industry, not a political belief? Like I am not claiming my reality is the only objective reality, it's just my anecdotal experience, which is often validated even by fans on here. I never said they can't, I just said that most are very political in my experience. Sure, I don't like poor representation and yeah there is a lot of that, however, a lot of people are cloaking their hate behind, "oh I just hate bad writing". And when you see, actual Japanese works, unconnected to the West, get hate because they are LGBT, it's hard to keep thinking a lot of fans who complain about this stuff aren't also bigoted. And again, though I will continue to state.. yeah this is my anecdotal experience.

Most of the world is not a loud minority, LGBT acceptance is within a small minority of people. Western soft power just makes that acceptance seem higher than it is. I mean if anime was to be truly "global" that would be to embrace homophobia funnily enough.

Everyone is self centered to some extent. Everyone is looking out for their own interest.

At best it's just a few hurtful comments/views it's not a big deal, however, that's because I live in the affluent West. Anyway whatever, I just don't have much more to say, so this is my last response. I don't even think there is some major disagreement on most of the things we are talking about.